Dalina: Hola Hola Chula
Melissa Hi there.
Dalina: All right everyone. We are so, so, so, so, so excited to have Taylor here. She is amazing. And I’ve known her, not in person, I feel like I don’t know a lot of people in person anymore. Everyone is just virtual. But I’ve known her for a few months now. And we were in a mastermind group together. That’s kind of how we met. But she is super cool. I asked her all my vegan and vegetarian questions because I’m still trying to learn, coming from a family that does not understand veganism. I feel like Taylor is my go-to person. So I’m excited to have this conversation because I want to learn. I know that so many of you want to learn, and I’m just super pumped for this.
Melissa: Amazing. I’m excited too, Taylor. Will you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background, how you found yourself in the space that you are?
Taylor: Sure. Hey everyone, I’m Taylor Wolfram, a registered dietician, nutritionist. I’m in Chicago, Illinois. I have a private practice. It’s all virtual right now due to COVID.
Melissa Helpful.
Taylor: But under normal circumstances… I still see some people virtual, but I also would see people in person in the city. So yeah, I have been vegan myself for over a decade. So long before I became a registered dietician. That was just a personal, ethical belief and stance of mine. And then I’ve been a registered dietician for seven years now. And like most RDs, I did not start out in the health at every size intuitive eating scene. I didn’t receive any formal education about that as a part of my academic journey, or internship, or in any jobs I worked in. So like many of us that had to do a lot of self-education.
Taylor: And so I’d say it’s been, I don’t know, maybe four or five years that I’ve been in that space. And so for me, because I’m personally vegan and have expertise in vegan nutrition as well, having studied that and researched that, it’s a really great kind of niche within a niche to be able to combine the two and really help folks disentangle any sort of disordered behaviors or motivations that might be coming into play for people who identify as vegan or eating a “plant-based diet.” I do work with people who aren’t vegan as well. But I think it’s really rewarding to work in that space because there is so much diet culture there, like everywhere, but it’s just kind of on another level in that space. And unfortunately, kind of the health focus and the fat phobic part of plant-based can seep into the ethical part of animal rights as well.
Melissa: Yeah. That’s so beautiful. Oh, I know. I feel like that’s a lot of the questions. You kind of all the points that we want to hit today because a lot of the questions have to do with that. And so the first question that one of our followers asked was how can you be vegan or vegetarian when struggling with an eating disorder, or knowing that this can be a form of restriction that can be triggering?
Taylor: Yeah, that’s a big question. Someone who’s currently struggling with an eating disorder or has recovered from an eating disorder, any time any food is “taken out of the eating pattern” or the diet, whether it’s for ethical motivations or not, it can be a slippery slope if there is already that predisposition, or kind of that history there. So definitely working with your care team of course. But I will say that it can be done. There are people who maintain ethical veganism throughout eating disorder treatment and recovery, and they’re okay. There are some people who need to put veganism or vegetarianism on the back burner and focus on recovery first. It really depends on the person.
Taylor: And I like to tell people, veganism will always be there. And the animals who we’re trying to help through this lifestyle and through this stance, they need us to be healthy. And so if we’re thinking long-term doing the most justice work for animals, it’s okay to temporarily need to take a step back from that with your food in order to heal yourself and make sure that your own physical and mental health is strong enough to be the kind of activist that you want to be. So I know that’s not a clear cut answer. It really just depends. And I also think it’s important to focus on non-food ways that you can make a difference for animals and take stances on different issues that you believe in with veganism. It extends far beyond food. And so there’s lots of ways to make a difference and to be an advocate that have nothing to do with food as well.
Melissa Such a kick in the pants to black and white thing too, right? It’s not all the veganism or none of the veganism. You can find a space for yourself that keeps you in the center too, right? That without your wellbeing, your causes, the things you believe in, they don’t have you as an advocate. So you made my little hairs stand up with that because I think that so many of our clients struggle with that black and white thinking. And it pops up not just around the diet culture, but also around other belief sets too. That’s so helpful.
Taylor: Yeah. I find that one other area of that kind of black and white thinking is, okay, you’re either motivated, you’re either vegan for ethics or you’re vegan for health. And well, a lot of people they’re really intertwined. And that can be really tricky for people themselves and also for clinicians. Ooh, I don’t know. They say it’s for the animals, but clearly there’s some disorder, beliefs, and behaviors here. And so that’s really common. And for anyone who’s struggling with that, I just want you to know you’re not alone. That’s not your fault. We’re all trained and socialized into this fatphobic, white supremacist society that breeds these kinds of behaviors and thoughts around food and our bodies. And that is even magnified sometimes in the plant-based world. So for anyone who’s feeling shame about that, I just want you to know that it’s okay. And that the first step is accepting that there is an issue and getting help for it.
Melissa Yeah. It’s really true. It’s a lot of mixed views coming together. And so that’s why I think working with someone like you, Taylor, must be so helpful because people can have a chance to just put that out there. Realign and recalibrate where are these things coming from? Why do I want to pursue these behaviors? And kind of keep themselves in the center of the process. It’s so helpful.
Dalina: Yes. And I love how you’re able to say, I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone who’s vegan or vegetarian actually say it’s okay. Recover first. At least not me. I guess maybe that’s why I’ve maybe been always a little bit put off by the veganism and vegetarian world where I feel like a lot of people that I met are like, “Either you do it or you’re wrong.” And I hear that a lot from a lot of people that I know personally or clients. It is very triggering to think that way, that all black or white mentality. And so the next question would be, how do you deal with the fatphobia, healthism, especially when you want to be more vegetarian or plant-based. And you’re looking up recipes, and you’re seeing all these triggering comments or ideas. One of my clients actually asked this question because she was like, “I want to eat more plant-based. My ultimate goal is veganism. But I’m afraid I’m going to fall back into my eating disorder, especially when I’m looking up recipes.”
Taylor: Yeah. That’s such a good question. And I mean, even outside of the vegan world, it’s impossible to avoid that kind of content, right? We talk with our clients about creating a safe space in their social media bubble and setting boundaries with family and friends, and avoiding triggering content as much as possible. But there is a level of resilience that we have to help people build because unfortunately the culture isn’t going to change overnight, and that stuff is everywhere.
Taylor: So I totally feel for this person, and they’re not wrong. There are so many whole foods, plant-based, oil free, whatever recipes out there that even in the title are inherently just deity, and even pins on Pinterest and the kind of catchy phrases that they use. And so I think the first step is learning what diet culture is. How it’s sneaky. All the little ways that it can manifest. So you can really be a good kind of detective, right? And so your little diet culture alarm is working well, and learn how to sort out the safe stuff from the not safe stuff.
Taylor: But also continuing to refine who you’re following on social media. Maybe rather than just Googling vegan recipes, getting to know a few recipe developers who are vegan, who don’t push any of that kind of stuff. And I’m happy to share. So I think really getting to know folks out there who do put out really great content without a side of weight stigma or diet culture is so important. And a big part of that too is trying to follow diverse vegans. Unfortunately, like a lot of things, it’s dominated by thin, white people. Heterosexual, cisgender all the things. And so it takes a little bit of digging to find people who are more diverse and are eating different foods and have different viewpoints. And those people are out there too. And so I think not only just trying to find the anti-diet vegan recipe bloggers, but make sure that you’re following a lot of different people so that the only messages you’re getting aren’t from the plant-based doctors, or juice gurus, and just weird wellness coaches on the internet.
Melissa: I think we’re all conjuring up the same image. It’s like a cloning-
Dalina: All of the same people.
Melissa: of people on social media. So if there’s anyone out there who’s a budding blogger, and you are a diverse person practicing non-diet culture veganism or vegetarianism, Taylor has made a call to action. We need your content. Okay. Let us know if you develop that blog. Amazing. We need it. We do. It’s really challenging for people to find the information.
Dalina: Who is that one blogger who just went exploded on TikTok. Oh my God. I can’t remember her name. She’s all over my Facebook now. Her video, I think the one video she made, it was like bacon carrot or something. I don’t know. Of course now I’m rambling. I can’t remember her name. Oh my God.
Melissa: Okay. We’ll have to put that in show notes.
Dalina: But I actually follow her, and I’m like, her food actually looks really, really good. It’s not what I think of when I think vegan. And it makes me want to try these things. So yes, for sure. Diversify your feed in every single way possible.
Melissa: I have a question about being critical Taylor because I had a client who said same thing. It wasn’t with vegan recipes, but she’s like, even meal service delivery that she gets there’ll be this little slippery comment or the calories plastered right on the front, and there’s all these different things. And she’s like, “I started to notice that. And I started to talk back.” And we were talking about how that’s such an important step in your journey to be able to be critical of diet culture. If you can do that, even if you can just create pause and not follow the lead of the message, that’s step one. Step two is actually talking back and creating relief. And then three is creating relief. In terms of the specific messages that vegans or vegetarians might look out for, what are some of the language or labels or things that people might look out for that you think are kind of sneaky diet culture.
Taylor: Yeah. Great question. So oil-free is a big one. There’s a movement among small group of plant-based doctors based on very limited scientific evidence that people need to eliminate all oil from their diet. Which is not necessary at all.
Melissa: How are the cells going to hold themselves together, you guys?
Taylor: I can not support it.
Dalina: All oil. Because obviously yeah, you’re going to… Like plant oils. That’s what they’re saying.
Taylor: Right. So I think some of them say fatty plant foods, like avocados, olives, nuts, and seeds are okay, but no oil. They’re literally, the recipes say saute in vegetable broth.
Dalina: You can’t saute.
Taylor: So that’s a big one to look out for, anyone whose recipes say no oil, or they mentioned no oil. Automatic follow for me, and avoid, avoid, avoid.
Dalina: Mind blowing.
Taylor: So that’s dietary fatphobia if you think of it. That’s a big one. The phrase whole food plant-based often is problematic, I find. Not necessarily all the time, but often. And some people that overlaps with kind of the no oil space. And so what that is code for is zero refined or processed foods whatsoever. And so obviously that is restrictive in nature.
Taylor: There’s a lot of health claims out there about preventing and reversing diseases, unclog your arteries, this and that. And it’s just unfortunate because there’s a lot of kind of inappropriate extrapolation of the data that shows the eating an abundance of plant foods is associated with good health. Yes, of course. Then you can eat lots of plant foods and eat animal foods too. It doesn’t mean you have to be vegan. But some people take that to mean like if you eat only plant foods, then you’re never going to get cancer. If you eat any animal foods, then you’re definitely going to get heart disease.
Taylor: And so anything that’s an always or never kind of claim about health or anything that just feels extreme or too good to be true probably is. So I think being critical of those things. And then also again, seeking out and filling your bookshelves and your online spaces with credible vegan nutrition information from vegan registered dieticians and anti-diet people is important.
Melissa Like Taylor Wolfram, for an example, what is your handle by the way? Do you mind telling them so that they can find you?
Taylor: Yeah. It’s Taylor Wolfram RD on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook.
Melissa: And you are also an animal lover. I have commented many times on your post of your animals.
Taylor: Yeah. I have two rescue kitties. They’re my children.
Melissa The babies, like my Lucy. I understand.
Dalina: I don’t.
Melissa: You have actual human babies. So yeah. Incredible. That’s so helpful. And I think those messages, the more you can kind of have them in your mind, the faster you are recognizing them and the faster you are creating that pause. So that is super valuable that you can kind of glean for us what to be looking out for.
Dalina: Love it. I also-
Taylor: Yep.
Dalina: Oh, sorry, Taylor. Go ahead.
Taylor: Nope. I was just agreeing.
Dalina: I also heard, one of my clients said that now a lot of bloggers have the feature that’s has the click that says take me directly to the recipe. So you no longer have to read.
Melissa I know. Recipe writers, there’s always that super long-
Dalina: Super long [crosstalk 00:16:05].
Melissa: my husband and I were walking on the beach discussing eggs, and this is how I became-
Dalina: So now apparently a lot, now you’re able to skip that. And so you’re able to just go straight to the recipe and not get none of that storyline or diety culture kind of dialogue, which I thought was great because that’s one of the reasons why I don’t look up recipes. Because I’m sorry, I hate reading three pages of why you decided to cook this meal. Just tell me how to do it. That’s all I came here for. But apparently that’s a new option. So if you’re looking for that, or if you’re looking for recipes, maybe be on the lookout for the option to just skip the stories. Which will help you possibly skip a lot of the diet culturey situation. So the next question that we have for you, Taylor, is really how do you deal when you are at a restaurant and order something and accidentally get an animal product? Do you send it away? Do you eat it? How do you deal with this situation?
Taylor: Is this a question for me personally, or what I would advise others to do?
Dalina: I guess advise others. I don’t know. I don’t know how she wrote it. I guess she wants to know what to do in that situation to feel better about herself.
Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that’s something everyone needs to figure out for themselves, right, and their level of comfort or discomfort. And I get really curious about any guilt or shame that pops up in situations like that. And it can often depend on what the food is. For instance, if it’s something you’re easily able to pick off and it’s not really leaking all over food or contaminating your food, or maybe it’s something very little that is incorporated into the food that it would be impossible to take out, and you’re like, whatever, I’ll just eat it. I think it really depends.
Taylor: I mean, obviously that food has already been made. It’s already been served. If you send it back, it’s just going to get thrown away. So in terms of not contributing to the system, that’s kind of already done. So it’s really just your own comfort level with the taste and flavor of the food, or knowing that that is inside of you. And I think it’s different for everyone. It really depends. So I think just doing a little exploration internally and thinking about what that means for you as an individual is important.
Melissa: Something just came to mind for me, just being in the presence of vegetarians, and how I think vegetarians get treated at the table when other people are not vegetarian. There seems to be a lot of pressure on will you, won’t you? There’s a lot of sign the check on your moral high ground you’ve taken. That sort of attitude or culture. I don’t know if you’ve ever felt that way. But I’ve noticed sometimes when people maybe shift gears, or they change on that spectrum, that there is a lot of sometimes tension from others or confusion from others. Have you noticed any of that? And then how do you personally work with some of those pressures that might happen and people who, like Dalina, who maybe don’t quite understand it, or are learning more about it? How do you work with that?
Taylor: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. And I think, of course, it depends on the environment, who it is. Is it the first time you’re with them? Is it friendly? Is it a professional thing? Is it someone who knows about veganism or not? I personally always try to keep the vibe positive and abundant, and make it look easy and satisfying. And I’ve been at this for a while, so I know how to veganize things and ask for options, even if they’re not on the menu. So I have been asked is it okay if I eat meat in front of you? And that is a respectful question to ask of a vegan who you don’t know. And so I think it just really depends on the situation and what the specific concern is. Some people might ask questions and are curious. And I think being patient with that and explaining is helpful. And like anything I think coming across compassionate is very important.
Dalina: Yeah, totally agree. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So the next question we have is how can you make sure that you’re getting enough when you’re being a vegan? How can you make sure you’re getting enough nutrients. I guess it’s all about how do you know that you’re doing it the correct way and not jeopardizing your overall health?
Taylor: Yeah. Definitely learning the basics of nutrition in general, but specifically vegan nutrition is helpful. And so the number one kind of overarching tip I give people is don’t eliminate, substitute. So don’t just take meat, dairy, and eggs off your plate. Make sure you’re substituting them with appropriate protein choices or calcium rich choices, for example. But also learning what nutrients were you getting through animal foods that you now need to replace with vegan foods, and what vegan foods have those nutrients.
Taylor: And also not forgetting fun foods, right? And vegan versions of your favorite play foods, whatever that is like pizza, donuts, cookies, all that fun stuff. Which, I mean, it’s amazing how many options are available these days, even in just regular grocery stores in small towns. It’s incredible. It’s more accessible than ever, which is awesome.
Taylor: But I do want to give a plug too to my favorite vegan nutrition book that I recommend to clients, as well as other health professionals who are interested. It’s called Vegan For Life. It’s written by two vegan registered dieticians, Ginny Messina and Jack Norris, who have both been at this for decades. They’re super evidence-based and awesome. And they go through kind of all the nutrients and explain how to get them without any weird, crazy sensationalism or health claims, or no oil. They’re very reasonable.
Taylor: And they also have a little plate graphic similar to MyPlate that is for vegans that shows, of course, here’s your fruits and veggies, but here’s your lagoons and nuts and grains. And here are the calcium rich choices and things like that. So that’s where I would direct folks to get credible information that doesn’t come with a side of diet culture. I’m also working on an e-course, an anti-diet vegan nutrition course because nothing like that exists that will deliver the nutrition essentials as well, but also tips on meal planning and prepping, and going out to eat, and stuff like that. Because unfortunately, like we talked about earlier, just Googling for this stuff is going to bring up so much, it’s misinformation, harmful information, and then it’s on you to sort through it.
Melissa That’s incredible. I’m so excited to hear about your course.
Dalina: I am excited.
Melissa: Registered dieticians are doing some amazing things. I’m so excited about that. That’s great, Taylor.
Taylor: Thank you.
Dalina: I’m excited thinking I want to take it because I’m like, crap-
Melissa: It sounds like you might need it, just to be honest with you.
Dalina: I do. I really do.
Melissa: I think you need to go to Taylor’s.
Dalina: I do. [inaudible 00:23:35].
Melissa: Okay. We’re going to set you up.
Dalina: Something. I’m going to get this book.
Melissa Okay.
Dalina: But the other question that we have here is, and I guess I also want to know this, how can we be more plant-based or vegetarian? How can we add more of these foods to our diet if we’re not ready to be full blown vegan or vegetarian?
Taylor: Yeah. I love this question. And I mean, not just from a veganing goal, but just thinking of how can I enjoy more foods? I always talk to my clients about an abundance mindset, right? And veggies are something that are just so almost co-opted by diet culture. And I’m sure you all have had clients that are kind of scarred from certain veggies or salads or things that they force themselves to eat when they were dieting. And then they need a break from it because they have this trauma associated with it.
Taylor: So learning to enjoy plant foods and veggies in an abundant tasty desirable way. I mean, number one, don’t force yourself to eat anything that you hate, right? It’s all about eating foods you enjoy that help you feel good, nourish mind, body, and soul. And that might include learning new ways to cook veggies or grains or beans if you’re not familiar with them. So I think coming at that from a fun kind of point of view and looking at it as trial and error and trying different ways of cooking, different spices, different recipes. And just experimenting and having fun and focusing on what tastes good, what feels good. Maybe there’s a cool blogger whose recipes you want to try, or a cool cookbook you want to make your way through. But also being cognizant do any sort of restrictive thoughts come up along the way. And that’s important to be mindful of.
Melissa: Amazing. Adding in. That’s always the mentality. What can I add in? And also the language you use too about when you’re talking about the cookbook of substitution is also in the realm of adding in, right? So either a neutral swap for these foods or actually adding more is bringing you away from restriction and diet culture versus I’m going to cut out these foods and then stay in this place of scarcity, which is honestly going to drive the diet cycle, and rev it right back up.
Taylor: Yeah. And I think it’s different for everyone. Some people are totally fine doing the meatless Monday thing, right? Or all my lunches, I’m going to do vegetarian or whatever. But for some people that might feel too rigid or strict. And so I think it really just depends. It might be helpful to start for some people with more of those kinds of meat-like alternatives rather than going straight for the whole food kind of plant-based thing. So it doesn’t feel as extreme of a switch or it is restrictive at all. And it really just depends on that person’s history with dieting or restriction. So it really is individualized.
Dalina: Awesome. I think I remember back when we were going to the offices normal and things like that, I definitely used to try to eat more vegetarian lunches. And I loved it because I got to try out so many different places in Philly that offer vegetarian or vegan options. I don’t know if you’ve heard of HipCityVeg. They’re in our area, and it is amazing. It’s probably one of my favorite places, and it’s vegan. And I think that, again, people associate this word with like, oh, it’s vegan. It must not taste good. That’s what I hear a lot. And I’m like, “No, you should really go to HipCityVeg. It’s really good.”
Taylor: Yeah. I remember when I was in Philly for FNCE. I didn’t have much free time. But on my way to the airport when leaving, I made sure to stop and get a vegan Philly cheese steak on my way out. I mean, there’s so there’s so many options. It doesn’t just have to be people think of it as “rabbit food,” right? I mean, like I said, I’ve been at this for awhile and the options now are incredible. I personally don’t have any cravings or feel like I’m missing anything. There’s a lot of privilege that goes into that in terms of what I’m able to have access to and afford. But you’d be surprised at how much tasty vegan food there is out there and how many alternatives there are at the grocery store too.
Melissa: You seem to lead with satisfaction though. I love that mindset of I’m in Philly, I’m in this place. I want to experience the thing that I heard about and honor this time here. I’m going to go find a Philly cheese steak, my way. That mindset is such a nice role model for all listeners, Taylor. If you’re somewhere and you want a food, maybe it’s vegan, maybe it’s vegetarian, maybe it’s this or that, whatever your belief set, is you can create satisfaction when you have that mindset. It’s just asking for it. So that is such a powerful example.
Taylor: Yeah, definitely. And also satisfaction, when we think of what helps us feel satisfied is protein, fat, fiber, flavor, salt, spices, all these things. And thinking of a vegan Philly cheese steak, that was full flavor. That was full fat. That was full sodium. But it doesn’t have to be, oh, well it’s just like nuts is the cheese. And then I don’t know, piece of, for example, carrot bacon for the meat. No, it was seitan, and it was really good cheese. And it doesn’t have to be synonymous with the low fat “healthy” version of things. Even among vegans, there’s a wide variety of dietary patterns.
Melissa No sad foods, guys. No sad foods.
Dalina: You just have to add the flavor. And I think that it’s awesome that you shared that with us. Because again, often what I hear is it’s bland. It doesn’t taste good. And I’m like, “You really probably haven’t been to a good place.” Philly is a great place for veganism though. We have HipCityVeg, which she also owns a bunch of other restaurants that are really good. And you would never know. I’ve been to some of her restaurants, and I’m like, you would never know that this is vegan food. So if you’re ever in Philly, hit me up. I’ll tell you where to go.
Melissa: I want to talk to Dalina in six months. How about you, Taylor? I can very much hear her on the fence with this and dabbling in a way that that’s exciting.
Dalina: I am. In my area now there isn’t a lot. So it’s hard to get takeout and things like that, at least that flavorful as when you’re in Center City Philly and have all those options. So yeah. But I’m sure a lot of other, like you said, it’s just so normal now. Everyone has that option at least.
Taylor: Right. And it doesn’t have to be from a vegan restaurant, right? I mean, especially global food, like Thai, Indian, Vietnamese, there are so many options like that naturally. Because a lot of cultures outside of modern day America are kind of based on plant-based foods. And so there are so many options out there at restaurants that you probably already go to.
Dalina: Yeah. I love that because that’s something that I share a lot with my clients too. I’m like, “You do notice that a lot of the stuff that other cultures eat are also plant-based. Don’t be afraid of trying other cultures.” Especially with me, I think people think I’m just married to Hispanic foods or Latino foods. And I’m like, “No, I love all food.” And you can also love all food too. It’s okay. Try different things.
Melissa: So true.
Dalina: Alrighty Taylor. So that is all the questions we had for you. Do you want to leave us with anything, share where they can find you? I know that you said you wrote a blog recently that kind of explains a lot more of this. And we’re definitely going to link it in our show notes. But tell us where everybody can find you. I know you shared it earlier.
Taylor: Yeah. Thanks. My website’s taylorwolfram.com. And there’s a little bar right at the top of my homepage to get a vegan intuitive eating freebie. And that’ll also put you on my vegan email list. If anyone is interested in that vegan nutrition course, then you’ll get updates there. And the blog posts that I just published is on veganism and eating disorders. And I’m not an eating disorder specialist, but it’s something that I care about. So I was really grateful to be able to interview several health at every size eating disorder dieticians and therapists who are vegan themselves, or have expertise in veganism. And it was just great to chat with them and to bring their expertise to light. And it’s got just information about the overlap. Does veganism put you at higher risk for eating disorders or not? What does the research say? What happens if you are vegan and have an eating disorder? Can you go to treatment? Do they allow that? So there’s a lot of helpful information there for anyone who’s curious about that topic.
Dalina: Awesome.
Melissa: I am so glad you do what you do. It’s really incredible and so needed. Thank you for being a voice and a space that honestly hasn’t really existed, I don’t think, up until you and colleagues like ours have had started leading the way. So thanks Taylor.
Taylor: Yeah. No, that means a lot. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Dalina: Thank you.
